Shawn Stringham (00:01.13)

John, thanks for joining us here on the Extra Pass podcast. I'm thrilled to have you as one of my water polo heroes and definitely a Goals legend. John, thanks for joining us. How are you today?

John Abdou (00:13.326)

I'm doing great. Sean, thanks for having me and appreciate the kind words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (00:17.952)

My pleasure, my pleasure. So as I mentioned, we're go back 10 years. I was thinking about it before and we're gonna go back 10 years. one of the opening things, June of 2015, you probably don't even remember it, is my guess. It was the USA versus Serbia. You and Greg were calling the matches. Serbia was in the United States to do an exposition for leading up into Rio.

John Abdou (00:26.528)

Okay.

John Abdou (00:43.117)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (00:46.272)

I was at the place at that point in my water polo career where I was excited coach. I had teenagers and we were gonna be fans. And so we loaded up my suburban and took two of my kids and another five or six worth of kids. The entire crew brought them down to watch Tony Azevedo and Mara Moses and John Mann, all those guys play in this game against Serbia. It was a

John Abdou (01:03.202)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (01:15.05)

crazy thing. We drove down there. We watched the games. You and Greg were calling the game and it was pretty, it was pretty intimate there. I think you were like sitting right next to us or behind us or something like that. Yeah. And, and you gave us a shout out for being the crazy Utah folks that were there watching the game because we had this and that night as soon as the game wrapped up like Tanner and Jonas and Robbie, who's actually in the other room, went and like broke into the locker room to like talk to Tony and Merrill.

John Abdou (01:25.186)

I know what you're talking about. yeah, yeah.

John Abdou (01:40.525)

Yeah.

John Abdou (01:44.76)

Ha ha ha.

Shawn Stringham (01:45.278)

Then we, jumped in the suburban and literally at eight o'clock, at the end of the game drove through the night to Salt Lake because they had to get back for AP tests the next day. So, I just want, and it was, I just wanted to say like that shout out was like super meaningful for us and for us as a team at that point. So I don't know if you remember that at all, but what, what a great memory we have. like, truly was one of those moments like ignited, like, okay, we could do this. This could be a cool thing. And the broadcasting thing is super cool.

John Abdou (01:54.808)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Stringham (02:14.59)

And what a fantastic way to share the sport with people all over the world.

John Abdou (02:18.272)

Yeah, I do remember. I do remember that show. That was UC San Diego, right? Yep, you came to UC San Diego and I think Greg and I were on the, it was intimate because they put the broadcast booth like in the stands, right? Yeah, Yes.

Shawn Stringham (02:23.498)

Yeah, yeah, yep.

Shawn Stringham (02:30.918)

It was in the stands. It was literally in the stand. Like, it was like one of those where I was being a fanboy is like, that's John Abdull right there.

John Abdou (02:36.878)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, that was that was no, I remember that actually very well. very well. We were there and we're in the stands, San Diego. It was wild. We had like a four game series with Serbia. I think we were planning at that time and and yeah, and I just, I was blown away. I'm like, these guys just drove seven hours from Utah to come watch this game. And so it was, it was inspiring to see you all, you know, make that commitment.

Shawn Stringham (03:06.559)

Right.

John Abdou (03:06.69)

to be here when at times we can't get people to go across the street, let alone try seven hours. So I think that was kudos to you, man, for inspiring those kids. It was really cool to see. And I do remember that moment really well. that whole series was wild. But yeah, that was a great moment.

Shawn Stringham (03:19.678)

Yeah. And you know, it's amazing how different opportunities like that kind of like pile up and like start, start little flywheels happening there because interestingly, like we've, I've become pretty good friends with Tony since then. And you know, Meryl Moses and the, and you know, it was great. My, just remember my, my daughter who I think Samantha at the time was 16, 15 or 16 years old, just loved Meryl Moses and having the opportunity to have a photo.

John Abdou (03:33.154)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (03:48.608)

with him and with her and Meryl together, like just changed her life. It was just really fun. And then those, boys were just so excited to meet Tony and how great those guys are for the sport. what I'm curious, like think back to those events and we can start talking a little bit about water polo. Why are events like that? The exhibition games and you know, the being able to see, you have so many different fun hats that you have like.

John Abdou (03:58.284)

Yeah.

John Abdou (04:05.934)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (04:15.255)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (04:15.699)

Why is that important for the sport to have opportunities for fans to be close to the athletes into the game?

John Abdou (04:22.082)

man, those were awesome times. that, that, then that series itself, first of all, what a blessing to be able to like say, like remember something from 10 years ago and still be around to talk about it. And, you know, I think that's awesome. And, just in going back 20 years, 25 years, 30 years in the sport, whatever. mean, that's really, you know, you got me thinking about that, which is, which is huge. One of the, the cooler things I got to do in my role at USA water polo, as high performance director at that time and others.

Shawn Stringham (04:30.719)

Right? Yeah, right.

John Abdou (04:51.776)

was playing all these exhibition games with our coaches, right? And we were very purposeful often with those games to make sure that we move them around, right, to different places. You would think like, San Diego is like a hotbed for water polo, you know, but the reality is like these opportunities to see the national team are few and far between. was living in Santa Barbara. was coaching at UC Santa Barbara before I took the job.

Shawn Stringham (04:54.067)

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (05:17.768)

at USA Waterpool and we felt the same thing in Santa Barbara. Like, hey, we're far away. We don't always get to see these guys. Like still three and a half hour drive sometimes from LA. And every time we did those games and we were out in different places, Texas, Florida, Connecticut, you know, wherever the games would be even, that was always one of the more inspiring things I got to be a part of because the energy, like the story you just described, right? Like then seeing

athletes like waiting in line for autographs when the game was over and like just seeing like the fan had because you spend every day at that time like you know every day we're just grinding away right like grinding away training and meetings and budget planning and you know looking ahead and doing you know Olympic you know calendar planning like we're just in the thick of all this and you forget you're just this is just work at this point right this is a job and then you show up at a pool deck and there's some

Shawn Stringham (05:48.787)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (05:55.956)

Right. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (06:04.669)

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (06:10.452)

young athlete like with tears in their eyes because they got to meet Maggie Stephens or they got to meet Tony or they got to see Merrill like their favorite goalie ever. like those moments just like immediately reminded me like why the work was important, you know, like why we're doing was important and knowing that like it planted seed. So like your story, if that moment planted a seed or you know, whatever, that's like really, really inspiring. And like to think of how many times we could do that all over, you know, in so many different places, so many different people.

Shawn Stringham (06:14.579)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (06:38.254)

to see what comes of it. No, it was always really, really exciting. I was telling someone yesterday on a quick side note, because we were talking about Texas, I think at some point someone brought up Texas to me. And we had done a game that same year at the University of Houston right before we left to Rio. So it was like we flew to Houston, the Olympic staging, right? Like some of the USOPC staging was there. And then the flight was from Houston to Rio de Janeiro.

Shawn Stringham (07:02.899)

Yeah. Yep.

John Abdou (07:07.438)

You know for for the games we did one game against Montenegro at the University of Houston the line to get in started forming three hours before the game so before that's ridiculous like three hours for the game people that people were dressed up in Uncle Sam costume be painting their faces, know chest pain and then afterwards we set up an autograph line for the for the guys of course right before we go and that line was two and a half hours itself to stay and get an honor and everyone did it so like

I have a lot of stories like that that just, you know, honestly make me choke up and think about how cool it is that those opportunities and those moments meant so much to so many people. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (07:44.84)

Right. Well, yeah. And I mean, obviously my, your one, I've mentioned this before, but like one of my personal inspirations, but especially the, you as a duo, you and Greg together as a team, right. I'm broadcasting those games. mentioned that broadcasting is just a small part of clearly it's just a small part of what you do, but talk about kind of the, we're coming off of the USC UCLA national championship was just like couple of days ago, but like, think about that 10 years of.

John Abdou (07:55.795)

Yeah.

John Abdou (08:09.09)

Hmm. yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (08:14.185)

how the growth of broadcasting of water polo has changed, right? For you as a professional, as a broadcaster to where, now those were probably likely on YouTube, I can't remember, but now where we're getting games put up on ESPN and we're seeing those national championships getting some pretty good press on that.

John Abdou (08:19.598)

Yeah.

John Abdou (08:33.942)

Yeah, yeah, it's been a that's been a definitely an arc or, you know, a projection that I didn't anticipate, you know, and certainly like, my role in that started and, you know, in a real just cost saving mechanism, right, you know, like in so many ways, like, I was already there. Yeah, yeah. So when I hear you call me a broadcaster, I'm like, I'm not sure if anyone's ever called me that before, you know, but I think

Shawn Stringham (08:49.641)

Right.

John knows about water polo. can make him do that. Okay.

John Abdou (09:01.966)

It's crazy because we were it actually started. You know, like in 2012, I think was the first time I called the game with Greg, right? So we've been doing games together for 13 years and he is he is the man, right? So this is he is a broadcaster like he's the he's a professional. He's someone who does this and I think I was coaching ODP at the time and I was at Santa Barbara and and I was like, well, I'm to be around for national team selection camp anyway. And he and I were talking.

Shawn Stringham (09:11.391)

Uh-huh.

Shawn Stringham (09:17.693)

Yeah, right.

John Abdou (09:29.454)

Um, and then he, he and I jumped on a game, I think it was USA Brazil. First time I ever did a game. want to it was 2012 and it was like in the middle of the ODP national team selection camp. So again, save some money. You didn't have to fly anybody in, drive anybody. I'm like, I'm there. just jumped on the mic and, uh, um, and I was working at UC Santa Barbara at that time with, um, a legend, uh, Wolf Wigo, right. And himself and Wolf, uh, as we all know, was a three time Olympian, but maybe don't know that he was a three time Olympic broadcaster himself.

Shawn Stringham (09:57.258)

Really? Really? I can't hold that.

John Abdou (09:57.646)

Yeah, so he brought he was the NBC broadcaster for the Olympic Games in 2008 2012 2016 and so and since then he retired from that and Tony Has taken that role so I was doing voiceovers for wolf over like, know drills and things like that are camps in the summer and you know wolf actually encouraged me to do it as well and he coached me up a lot he gave me a lot of wisdom and

and coaching at that time. I've been told I have a face for radio. It worked out super well. I still have that coaching voice that projects, you know what I mean, a little bit. so this could work out. so I've been on the mic with Greg and a few others, I guess, but 13 years of doing that, going on 14. I think when we first started, to your point, was all YouTube.

Shawn Stringham (10:27.219)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (10:33.855)

Right?

John Abdou (10:50.626)

whatever we could do, you know, again, we were just trying to do things on the cheap. Can we just make this accessible? I grew up at a time where, you know, I was using a VHS tape, you know, when the Olympics would come on, I would record the TV on the VHS tape. Like that was our only access to having water polo. Right. And then even when I started coaching as a young coach, there weren't really like we'd be begging people to send me DVDs of games from ever. They're not accessible, like pre YouTube era. Right. All those things. And so.

Shawn Stringham (10:54.046)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (11:03.359)

Yep. 100%. Yeah.

John Abdou (11:18.318)

Um, the, last 13 years have been a massive trajectory upwards of just like the accessibility of seeing these things. And, um, and I would encourage, um, those anybody kind of listening, we talked about this, that UCC, a game that you're talking about that we, that we saw each other 10 years ago, that's on YouTube. The, my, the, game is on YouTube and the rest of those games of that series on YouTube. So like, you could go back and watch, we did a game in that series in Chicago. Um, I believe, and, uh, it was at the university of Illinois, Chicago, which

Shawn Stringham (11:32.691)

Yeah, yeah. Right.

John Abdou (11:48.31)

was not necessarily a regulation size pool, you know, for an international water polo game. like one of the referees at each time was like refereeing on like a floating device, you know, like on one side of the pool, there's a shallow end on the other side. Chicago has like a massive Serbian enclave, right? Of immigrants. And so all these Serbians were there. It was like the one of the more wild games you'll ever see. think go back and watch all these. I now we have an archive of all these things. So YouTube is full of

Shawn Stringham (12:12.617)

Huh. Yeah.

John Abdou (12:17.346)

Go back to 2015, 2016, watch all these USA games. think it's really, really neat to know that everybody has access to it so easily.

Shawn Stringham (12:25.011)

That's fantastic. What, what, so we've talked about that. mean, and you see now back to your point, I wanted to make this point as well. remember. mean, honestly, you go back when we were young, like you really only saw water polo every four years, right? Like you literally, remember legitimately being there as a, as a kid with the VHR, with the VHS hitting, waiting to hit record, because I knew it was going to be the only game that I was going to watch.

John Abdou (12:40.462)

That's right.

Shawn Stringham (12:53.021)

and being so disappointed that gymnastics covered the first period, right?

John Abdou (12:56.226)

That's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (12:58.527)

It's like you got the game starting like mid second period and that was the only time you could actually watch the game live or on TV was on that Olympic cycle. And I remember Terry Schroeder playing in 1984, that's dating me, right? Like in LA and how exciting that was to be able to be a part of that. So as you talk about, I mean, I think it's amazing.

John Abdou (13:08.972)

Yeah, yeah.

John Abdou (13:14.894)

Hmm.

John Abdou (13:19.15)

For sure.

Shawn Stringham (13:26.493)

And it's, and it's really cool to hear you talk about behind the scenes kind of things, because like you pulled it off, right? You never would have known, there was, you were trying to do it on the cheap and all of that. Like what, what was the initial, I mean, the initial concept of broadcasting water polo for you, for, for USA water polo at the time was, was just to get the eyes on it. Right. I mean, that's, is, is that kind of where, kind of how, how it's the significance of that at that point.

John Abdou (13:53.902)

Yeah, it was just to get out, you know, well, I think there's a few things, right? Like one, we wanted to get eyes on it, right? You want to make things accessible. And that's a massive, massive, massive importance to grow the sport and visibility and, you know, just making people aware of the sport. You know, again, this is still a niche sport, even around the world, right? Only in very small pockets is it not a niche thing in the Balkans, as we all know. But otherwise, this is a niche sport. so,

Shawn Stringham (14:00.819)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (14:07.326)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (14:13.053)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (14:23.756)

you know, when we really, when we broadcast these things, we put them out on there, we were trying to get exposure. I would say the, and then that's how you build and grow the sport and look, you know, for advertisers and sponsors and, know, potential, you know, again, that's one. Two, I would say is like inspiration education, right? Because then if you, if you can see it, you can be it. So people are watching, you know, anywhere in the world saying, Hey, I can, that would be a cool thing for me to do. That's something. Why haven't I ever tried that? I mean, that's.

You know for all of us, that's how I I didn't know about water polo. I was a basketball player in high school I playing on the freshman basketball team. I I was on swim team, you know, I'm doing swimming and then I'll sudden I saw people playing water polo I'd never heard of water polo. I was 15 years old I never heard of the thing in my life, right? And so that's absurd now right where our kids are out of the womb know of water polo and taking pictures my son took a picture with a Ball in his hand the day he was born stuff like that. But like I didn't even know what water polo was I was 15 and so

I just saw it. walked by the pool and I see it. I'm like wait, there's a ball. There's a goal. You're kind of hitting each other. This is similar. It's kind of similar to basketball. You know what mean? Like there's a center. I was like kind of a post-up guy in basketball. Like I can post up, you know, in water polo and it worked out. And so I think that there's that exposure was one. Two is inspiration, right? Just seeing it. Just like making people work because it's still people don't know. And then I'd say the third thing is education. So every time we do one of these broadcasts, I really try to

Shawn Stringham (15:27.871)

Yeah.

John Abdou (15:50.734)

And we talked about this a lot 13 years ago, whenever we started this, or 12 years ago when we started it, to be sure that there's a point of like, if you're watching out there, see what that goalie just did, right? If you're a center and you're watching this game, notice what that center did to make that move, right? That attacker, the way the ball released off his hand, right? Are you paying attention to that so that there's a level of education here that like, now all the kids in Utah, all the kids in Texas, all the kids in Florida, all the kids in California,

Shawn Stringham (16:02.953)

Hi.

John Abdou (16:19.192)

can go back, watch these games on YouTube and say, you know, if I want to be a good shooter, I need to go watch Tony shoot a bunch. I need to go watch how Alex bone releases the ball like that so hard or like, you know, I want to be a center. Why not watching Ben Halleck, you know, in front of the goal or, know, again, all our women, you know, Maggie and Maddie and Kylie and, know, all these people, this is now a resource for educators and coaches to, you know, teach the game at a better level. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (16:32.895)

Right? Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (16:46.115)

as we're kind of wrapping up this section on broadcasting, do you have a favorite moment that you have called? Like that's just the one that's like is just just that pinnacle moment.

John Abdou (16:48.269)

Mm-hmm.

John Abdou (16:56.974)

It's yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's a moment, right? Like I have so much honestly Sean. I have so much fun doing it like to me. It's like like I I just have a great time. It's like it's a good time and honestly Greg and I have developed. He's such a professional. He's coached me up so much and you know Wolf coached me up in the past. But like so I just ride his coattails, you know to be to be honest, but he you know Greg Greg is the man and he makes it easy for everybody that sits with him to do that. And so it's just fun and you know.

Shawn Stringham (17:21.265)

Yes.

John Abdou (17:26.392)

probably just a couple of middle-aged men talking about basketball references at some point is funny too. I think the, you know, I don't have one moment, but I'll say there are two games that really stand out and I'll give a third one. But the first game that really stands out is that Serbia USA game that we did. That was when I realized like, this is going to be a fun thing to do, right? Like we are in Chicago. We could only stand up though. We can only stand up the whole broadcast. You know, we couldn't sit down. was, you know, again,

Shawn Stringham (17:46.589)

Right. Right.

John Abdou (17:56.43)

You got a referee standing on a floating device. got like McQuinn Baron jumping off the bottom to make saves. You know, the Serbians and the Americans had been, this is like game three or four. They're like, you know, mad at each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no love lost. got people screaming Serbian in the back. I'm pretty sure the Serbian coach like hit one of his players, you know, like on the bench. Like, like there was just like, I watched that game. It was.

Shawn Stringham (18:06.281)

Yeah. And the US swept them, right? They went 4-0, right? So there's no... Yeah. So... No love lost. Yeah.

John Abdou (18:26.382)

just a ridiculous scene to watch, you know? And then in 2022, we called the national championship game at Cal, USC Cal, Greg and I, and on ESPNU. And that was kind of maybe even ESPN too, I think, but it was one of the first ones we had done on a night. This is post COVID. Now we're investing, people may not know US Water Polo invest the money for that broadcast to go on. So ESPN is not.

Shawn Stringham (18:34.665)

Yeah. yeah.

Shawn Stringham (18:49.331)

Yeah.

John Abdou (18:52.632)

paying for that, right? That's a USA WaterPool funding thing for now. And so we were putting this thing on and that game was just a ridiculous comeback from Cal and Papa Nicolaou, like just an instant classic of a game. And I remember after that game, like, it was like someone unplugged me. I just kind of like collapsed in my chair afterwards. Like the energy was so high for four quarters and where it went, like.

Like my soul left my body. Like it was just, it was, was, it was gnarly and, inevitably, small fact that game won like a college broadcasting award, you know, like it was like recognized not necessarily for our call per se, but the whole thing as a general, like the, the, yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Shawn Stringham (19:30.153)

Yeah.

Right, right. It was beautiful. I remember watching that game and the cameras were fantastic. The commentators were fantastic. Like it was, it was a spotlight moment for sure for Waterport. It was so good.

John Abdou (19:44.814)

Yeah. And so to get national recognition around that was for, again, the producers, the people put, like you said, that's a great game to watch. There's so many learning points in that game too, like really coachable moments. Um, so I would say that those two games really stand out. And then I'd be remiss to say we're 48 hours removed or so from, you know, you know, UCLA winning at the buzzer, you know, over at Cal, which was, you know, another, another instant classic, you know, um, uh, the year before that,

Shawn Stringham (20:01.35)

Yeah, what a guy.

John Abdou (20:11.85)

in 20 sorry, so many games, right? But the year before that we called a semi-final Fordham USC in the semi-finals that when it's overtime and SCN are winning by one that that is another game I would go back and kind of watch and highlight. That's another just awesome game, but they're all fun. And those are just some moments that were like really, yeah, would suggest for people to bookmark and go back and watch. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (20:17.714)

Yeah. Yep.

Shawn Stringham (20:28.243)

Love it.

Shawn Stringham (20:33.352)

Yeah, it's so great. mean, I, given what, given what game online studios turned on into what you have, like it, you just pinch yourself sometimes of like people are giving us money to make this happen. Right. It's so, it's so, it's so exciting to be a part of it. So, incredible conversation. Thank you.

John Abdou (20:39.213)

Yeah.

John Abdou (20:45.558)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool stuff. Yeah, no, that was fun.

Shawn Stringham (20:54.376)

All right, let's pause right there. We'll reset, grab a drink, everything good on your end. Everything good, Chloe?

John Abdou (20:59.062)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Abdou (21:07.234)

Yeah, one of my headphones went out. I'm recharging it now. But even with one headphone, do I sound OK now, even with one headphone in? Yeah, OK. So even if it does go out again, old headphones, it should be OK. I'll just pop it back in.

Shawn Stringham (21:08.338)

Yeah, perfect. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (21:16.978)

Yeah, you're fantastic. Yeah, you're great.

Shawn Stringham (21:24.766)

Oh, that's fine. Yeah, you'll be fine. So next segment, I want to kind of dial in on kind of NIL and changes in the game. And from a college perspective of like, your role as the the as the AD there and kind of talk through roster changes and some some things so that people maybe may not may or may not know kind of some of the changes that are happening within college. Does that work? All right. Is that cool?

John Abdou (21:39.574)

Yeah, yeah, sure.

John Abdou (21:53.646)

Yeah, totally, totally. yeah, I did that with, I've had to do this a few times. This is a, it's a lot, there's a lot of nuance. No, no, no, this is, I want to know. I'm confused and let alone, you know, being in charge of it. It's, it's, it's not easy. And so it's, it's, it's weird. So yeah, we can, we can, yeah, definitely, man, as much as, yeah, yeah. Let me take a drink real quick. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (22:01.298)

People wanna know.

Yeah. Right.

Shawn Stringham (22:14.088)

All right, sounds good.

Shawn Stringham (22:26.206)

So John, one of your current roles right now outside of being working for UCI and leading that part of that department there is you're leading the coaches association. And we're kind of into a new era of college athletics. We've got NIL, we've got roster changes. Can you outline some of the recent college game changes that maybe fans, athletes,

may not know and kind of how they're affecting the game of what you're seeing in your seat on the bus there as we're moving forward in water polo.

John Abdou (22:59.662)

Yeah, you want to keep this segment 15 minutes, right? I mean, that's this is this is this not only is this new, it's ever changing, right? So as every somebody said this yesterday in a staff meeting is that when people have been trying to make changes and adjustments to the NCAA for decades, right? Like that's the way model is not, you know,

Shawn Stringham (23:02.684)

Yeah, well, know, it's 50 minutes or two hours, either one you choose.

Shawn Stringham (23:13.47)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (23:24.69)

Yeah.

John Abdou (23:27.182)

Questions around how the NCAA model works is not a new question or concept. The difference is now is what people have found as a tool to advance their cause is to go through the court system as opposed to the NCAA itself. So the NCAA was so slow to evolve themselves in the process to the extent like that now it's all just happening at once in this floodgate, including lawsuit after lawsuit that happens. then the

Shawn Stringham (23:30.204)

Right. Right.

Shawn Stringham (23:44.275)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (23:51.026)

Right.

John Abdou (23:55.382)

end of that lawsuit will is a forcing mechanism for the NCAA to make a change or to have a rule. so tomorrow's lawsuit is the next day's legislation. We haven't seen that yet. And so and including Congress right now working through the score act, you know, which just I think died in committee last week in the House of Representatives. And so like, I mean, there's, you know, kind of every week there'll be something new. But the if I could try to do this in a minute or so, right, that

Shawn Stringham (24:06.526)

Yeah.

John Abdou (24:24.826)

The largest thing that happened was there was a settlement in the House of Representatives to back pay athletes for name, image and likeness that, for, you know, back pay, this goes back a significant amount of ways. And so, or years, and the, all Division I schools have had to, are going to pay, whether you have football or not, every Division I school has to pay into this settlement.

Shawn Stringham (24:50.792)

Mm-hmm.

John Abdou (24:53.838)

Um, and so, that settlements in the billions, right? So we're all paying that money back. And so over the course of 10 years, so every division one institution, um, has had to take a budget cut and has taken budget budget hit in order to pay back this settlement to the NCAA and now the NCAA is distributing that money to the athletes, you know, who apply. If you may see this sometimes out there, um, on social media or something, they'll be like, you know, NCAA athletes, have you applied for your, you know, if you played between this year and this year apply to receive your settlement money. So.

That's a big hit on D1 universities having to pay back into the settlement, right? So that's one issue. So budgets are have taken a hit. Parts of that settlement that have come out now from the judge at the end of the settlement were things like roster caps. Now in water polo, we have a roster limit on the men's and women's side of 24 athletes. This is all the Division 1 level, right? So, know, so we could talk D2, D3, but Division 1 rosters now have to be 20, the limited is 24.

Shawn Stringham (25:44.752)

1. Right.

John Abdou (25:53.708)

Within that 24, not only can you pay athletes for name, engine, likeness opportunities, you can give as many scholarships with as two roster spots that you have. So if you were capable of giving 24 scholarships, you could give 24 scholarships. Now I will, I have yet to hear of a water pol institution that's ready to give that many scholarships, but, you have flexibility now, right? Like you have flexibility and the ability to do that. That's again, probably something we'll never see, but there's more.

Shawn Stringham (26:13.01)

Right. 24 scholarships, right? Right.

John Abdou (26:23.224)

kind of opportunity in that. And so I think I'll stop there because there's so many, so much nuance in every one of these, but you know, we could dive into it. But the, the biggest thing is, you know, the ability to get paid for your name, image and likeness, Olympic sports in general, not just water polo are having a harder time finding their way within division one athletic department settings because of the lack of money that's out there because of the budget cuts, because of the money that has to go to the football teams, basketball teams.

sometimes baseball teams, right, depending on the university. So that's a, we're in a very much Olympic sports are in a financial, you know, crunch and then the roster limits and how scholarships work when that at 24, 25, I don't think is a bad number. A lot of people will say like, you know, we'll say, Oh, that's only 24 at the end of the day. As a coach association, we walked back when we, when the number got announced at 24, we all kind of looked at each other and breathe a sigh of relief of like, okay, we can, we can work with 24. Right. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (27:20.732)

We can manage that. Yeah. And that's just D1, D2 and D3 can still have bigger rosters.

John Abdou (27:22.028)

Yeah, so we're

John Abdou (27:25.966)

Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah. Now you will rarely see those bigger rosters at the D3 level because like, you know, oftentimes it's really challenging to have to recruit that many athletes into a highly selective, you know, school from an admission standpoint, things like that. You know, you don't get as many walk-ons, you don't get as many people just happen to show up at, you know, Pomona College, you know, which is like the third best liberal arts college in the country or Caltech or MIT or something like that, right? Like it's really challenging.

Shawn Stringham (27:52.926)

Okay. Yeah.

John Abdou (27:56.162)

to see those things happen.

Shawn Stringham (27:58.205)

What you mentioned the kind of the revenue sport versus Olympic sport gap there. is that, is how, how is something, you know, how is that something that those institutions are trying to work on that? Like is that you said that Olympic sports are a little bit more at risk. Maybe is that true or tell me more about that.

John Abdou (28:03.695)

Yeah.

John Abdou (28:16.782)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, certainly the risk of Olympic sport sustainability at the college level has always been an issue. That's not something new to 2025 or post-house settlement or something. We've been fighting for our existence since the beginning, right? And so I think that's actually one of our competitive advantages as water polo. Like, this is not new to us. Like, we've been fighting to survive for a very long time. And so I think, you know, really defining

kind of what revenue sports are, right? Like, you know, the footballs and the basketballs of the world, those only really make money at power for schools for the most part, right? Like, you know, so at most mid majors or, you know, across the board, you know, sports are not making money. Your athletic department is not making a profit on anything, no matter what, like they're just not. And in fact, again, most of those schools aren't either. So I think it's, there's a lot of like language use of like revenue versus non-revenue.

Shawn Stringham (29:02.374)

Right. Right.

John Abdou (29:13.166)

we're getting to the point where there really isn't revenue out there, right? mean, there's a story came out with two days ago, University of Colorado is now $27 million in debt as an athletic department. I think that was a huge headline, right? Like that, you know, since they decided to really heavily invest in, in football and, know, and all their sports, mean, it's an incredible university. They do a great job with all they do, but all the cool things they did and all the TV time they got and all the merch they've been selling, they're $27 million in debt.

I don't want to speculate as to why, but it's easy to tell, right? It's the investment into the athletes, investment in the coaches, right? Investment in the NIL, investment into everything to make sure that the athletes wellness center, they have a beautiful wellness center, all the things they're spending money on to make that happen. They're having to do that for basketball and football at the highest level. Well, then, you know, if you see a similar trend at other universities, then what is, you know, the trickle down effect is that money needs to go to...

football or it needs to go to basketball, then volleyball and tennis and soccer and water polo, we're all just being told you need to find your own path for financial viability. So then that's when fundraising and finding creative ways to, you know, sustain yourself are really important for these college programs.

Shawn Stringham (30:22.78)

Interesting. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (30:33.074)

I mean, and we talk about NIL and it's, we, generally talk about, think about, you know, power for the quarterbacks or the receivers or basketball players. Are you seeing that from your seat? Are you seeing that for water polo for other Olympic sports and athletes getting deals for NIL type type stuff?

John Abdou (30:39.394)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (30:53.472)

Yeah, yeah, I think it's just on a small it's happening. It's just a little bit smaller of a scale, right? Like you're not, you know, the stories we're gonna see on ESPN is the, you know, the one that just came out of the UCLA quarterback that left Tennessee to take money to go to UCLA. And now he's going back to Tennessee to take money again. And like, you know, which again, the sustainability of that model is in my mind, you really question the best. Yes. Yeah. mean, sure.

Shawn Stringham (31:04.99)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (31:15.326)

and will at best.

John Abdou (31:18.936)

Troy Aikman saying, I the one who paid for that guy. I'm not doing that again, right? I'm never doing that again. Why would I pay a guy to transfer to a school and not, you he doesn't want to do that again. So, yeah, I don't think that's going to last very long. We're just in a really strange time, right? But so take NIL down to its lowest form, right? Like when, which is again, name image likeness. When I was in college, my generation of men and women that played in college water polo, we weren't allowed to go run a water polo.

Shawn Stringham (31:22.32)

Right, yeah.

Shawn Stringham (31:36.723)

Hehehe.

John Abdou (31:48.526)

camp or a clinic and say, I'm, you know, I'm Meryl Moses come to my goalie camp, right? This weekend. Um, I just won national championship with Pepperdine 97, right? Like he wasn't allowed to capitalize on, on that, right? That, and that was, let's just be honest, that's criminal, right? We were net athletes were never really allowed to use their own name, name, image, and likeness. And so that issue existed for so long. And this like backlash of a reaction because nobody did anything about it for so long.

Shawn Stringham (31:54.162)

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Stringham (32:02.174)

Bye.

John Abdou (32:17.321)

is really extreme. eventually we're going to revert back to the norm. So when it comes to water polo, those little things that should have happened before starting to happen now athletes can say, I'll give you private lessons. My name is so-and-so. I play water polo at Austin college. I'm nearby. Let me run. And they can put their face on something. they're allowed to go to Chipotle and, know, you know, maybe, you know, take, make a deal with Chipotle, right? That says, I love Chipotle and you know, go back.

Shawn Stringham (32:42.822)

and you give me fritos, yep.

John Abdou (32:44.294)

Yeah, exactly. Like that wasn't allowed before, right? And, and, and still isn't unless it's formalized, right? In a name, image, likeness, a deal. And even at UCI, I've seen some really cool things for some, you know, call them Olympic sports, you know, like track and field and volleyball and, others where, you know, specifically to their person's story, they're able to go make money, against small things to be able to post on something, you know, posting on

Shawn Stringham (32:47.1)

Right, right.

Shawn Stringham (33:01.522)

Yeah.

John Abdou (33:13.176)

Social media showing up to a kids birthday party, a one-on-one lesson here or there, highlighting the hydration drink that you're drinking today, things like that. So it's happening, it's just a smaller scale, but I'm glad that that's available for the athletes.

Shawn Stringham (33:20.946)

Right. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (33:27.762)

Right, so on those deals for the smaller sports, the school involved in that? Like if someone needs to go to the birthday party or to Chipotle, like is the school and probably your role at UCI, like are you involved in managing those deals so they're compliant?

John Abdou (33:44.148)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, not not me personally, but the compliance, you said it, the compliance office gets involved. And I think and that's why a lot of, you know, most athletic departments are actually just pulling together an athletic director or administrator in charge of just just of NIL, right. And so that all the deals kind of come through a platform, you know, and it's, know, an online platform where people, know, athletes can put up their own profiles, you can do this now, if you wanted to go to any school, you could actually and click NIL on their website.

Shawn Stringham (33:46.556)

Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (34:12.438)

it'll probably direct you to a third party website that has like, hey, I was looking for someone from the University of Utah, you know, to come give my kids some pitching lessons, right? Or, you know, come through the birthday party and take some pictures. You could do that. And it'll have their rate sheet on there, right? That says, hey, it costs this University of Utah kid, it's going to cost you 50 bucks if you want me to post about, you know, your coffee, coffee stand that you open up on the weekends and you know, so yeah.

Shawn Stringham (34:26.312)

Right, yeah, yeah, cool.

Shawn Stringham (34:37.34)

And maybe as we kind of work to wrap up on this section, what are the upsides and the downsides for NIL in water polo and Olympic sports?

John Abdou (34:46.124)

Yeah, it's a good question. Look, I think the upside is the stuff we just talked about, Athletes' rights, think, generally, most reasonable people agree were not addressed for very long time. So giving the athletes a voice and some power and some autonomy with their own name, image, likeness is a good thing, right? The pendulum's swinging hard, so a lot of coaches and administrators feel like it's happening quick and are frustrated and,

Shawn Stringham (34:51.484)

Yeah, yep.

Shawn Stringham (34:59.58)

Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (35:14.158)

trying to sort their way around it. And I think that's to be expected. And so, you know, the opportunities at division one levels with the 24 roster spots are smaller. So now you can see that as like a negative thing. Some people will say, well, now there are fewer opportunities for me to play out of division one school at the 20. Well, you know, the upside for me as someone relatively neutral who can look back and say what's good for water polo.

is now that person who would normally be the 28th, 29th, 30th person on a roster at a D1 school can now go somewhere else where they're going to have a great opportunity to play, contribute to the program, get minutes. So there's going to be a trickle, it's already kind of happening, a trickle down effect of recruits finding their way down to other programs and the kind of hoarding of players will be much less, I think, at the D1 level. So think that's great.

Shawn Stringham (36:05.265)

Right.

John Abdou (36:10.488)

Hopefully people can embrace the opportunity to go be a starter and go contribute somewhere else and really find value in the things they do. So I think there's an opportunity there. I also think there's a rallying cry around all Olympic sports that I think is a positive that it's in crisis that we find ways to move forward and be creative and do cool things. Rarely in comfort do you find creative solutions.

Shawn Stringham (36:33.425)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (36:37.757)

Comfort crisis, yeah, for sure.

John Abdou (36:39.566)

Like that's a good book, right? That's good. Yeah, like so I like some adversity because it makes us think it makes us want to, you know, find better solutions to what we're doing. It makes us work harder and value the things that maybe we ignored before. And so every college program needs to find ways to be financially independent of their university support. They're going to have to find ways to create endowments and

Shawn Stringham (36:41.671)

Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Stringham (37:05.148)

Yeah.

John Abdou (37:07.726)

work on their own and build community. And so it's an opportunity to build community right now at each university that I think is really unique and an upside.

Shawn Stringham (37:14.971)

Yeah, it's, and it's amazing. It'll be interesting to see, you know, the roster limits and that, and moving, I don't, pushing more towards parody. Like it's, it's interesting year by year, you see Fordham take USC to overtime, right? You see Princeton go deep. Like it'll be interesting to see specifically in water polo, right? How, how long the big four can hold onto that streak really of, of that championship, of those championships.

John Abdou (37:26.776)

Yeah.

John Abdou (37:39.062)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, think that what I described is the upside, the opportunity on those things. But I also think this situation does help the rich get richer in a lot of ways too. So like, I think we'll see a lot more parity and competition from non-powerful conference schools. Like that's all gonna, that level of play is going to rise and the parity and the fighting between, you know, that group of teams is, we already seen it the last couple of years and it's gonna get better and better.

Shawn Stringham (37:43.762)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (37:48.443)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (37:59.165)

Yeah, yeah.

John Abdou (38:08.108)

But that gap, and we may have seen it in the semi for this year with Fordham and USC, that gap is gonna continue to grow. And you see it in college, it's gonna happen in college basketball, right? We didn't have any upsets or mid-majors in the men's college basketball tournament either, right? Towards the end last year. So you asked for the positive and negative. I think there's a lot of positive and there's good there, but that is the looming elephant in the room of the rich continuing to get richer and the gap between mid-major and power four.

Shawn Stringham (38:11.761)

Yep. Yep.

Shawn Stringham (38:22.183)

Right? Yep.

John Abdou (38:37.888)

is clearly going to grow.

Shawn Stringham (38:39.653)

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Great conversation. Okay. Cool. Let's take a pause. all good. Everything good, Chloe?

Shawn Stringham (38:58.513)

Okay, next section, getting into it here, is youth development, building the base and talking about the current state of youth development in America. That'll be a good conversation.

John Abdou (39:00.302)

Okay.

Yeah.

John Abdou (39:12.046)

Yeah.

John Abdou (39:17.678)

Hmm.

Shawn Stringham (39:17.789)

good timing for this phone call. Hold on, let me...

John Abdou (39:21.174)

Yeah, yeah, do it.

Shawn Stringham (39:22.907)

Yeah, me ditch him. One second.

Shawn Stringham (39:36.061)

Cool.

Shawn Stringham (39:41.894)

All right. So John, as we kind of move on to this next section, you oversaw the Olympic development. We're high in charge of all the high performance for USA Water Polo for years. Now you're seeing those athletes that that system produced get in to the Olympic games, right? And to participate and to make an impact on the collegiate level. Let's talk about Youth Water Polo.

John Abdou (40:00.567)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (40:08.769)

What do you love about Youth Water Polo in the United States right now? And maybe what are some things that as a community that we can work on and make better?

John Abdou (40:18.978)

This is another loaded question, Sean. That's a lot to that,

Shawn Stringham (40:21.981)

Yeah, yeah, you can take that anywhere you want.

John Abdou (40:27.118)

there's some discernment that I need to think about where to go through. what I love about youth, I'll start with the positive as we always should, right? Is I think what I love is seeing water polo sprout and grow all over the country. Like that was always something. I mean, honestly, in that job, you talked about this with the broadcast a little bit earlier, right? With like, know, going and doing the games in Chicago and Texas and some other places. I'm like,

My favorite part of when I was in charge of ODP was going to visiting the zones every year, right? And like come, come into Utah, right? And go into Kearns and like, you know, being at the, the, the side of the winter Olympics and running regional championships in Utah and then in Texas and in Florida, just like doing really cool. I love the fact that they're now in 2025 as we near the end of the year versus 10, 15 years ago.

Shawn Stringham (41:02.811)

Yeah, yeah. Right.

John Abdou (41:24.822)

I love the fact that most states have access to water polo. Like there isn't a place I can go in the country where I don't know somebody or like I can find water polo nearby. So I think the growth nationally of the sport has been really, really positive. think the, again, I love that and shout out to everybody. That's a lot of work. That's you, Sean. That's like you in your home state. That's like everybody has people in their states that are

championing that and I just love to support those people and I'm also seeing that internationally as well like, you know seeing water polo grow in countries like Ghana and you know, and and you know, the Philippines and like some of these projects I get to be a part of that are just like really really neat right to see it it grow over there the The negative part or like the cautionary tale I think isn't a water polo story I think it's youth sports in America and I think I think we are at a real

Shawn Stringham (41:54.237)

grinding.

Shawn Stringham (42:04.679)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (42:25.17)

really critical moment of awareness of the effects of the structure and ecosystem that we've built for youth sports in America that have been damaging in my mind. I think early identification, early specialization are not good things for sports, for kids, and for athlete development and Olympic development. I think the lack of play opportunities is a real crisis.

for kids, you know, just being able to play and without coaches instruction. I think the data supports all of that. I actually just finished writing. I started writing this with the help of a lot of people, an American development model for water polo. And I tried to publish it right before COVID and then COVID stopped us and it was with the help of the Olympic Committee.

And I finished it this year now. And so I'm happy to send you a copy and I'm hopefully US Water Polo will post this online at some point, you know, here and talk more about it. But I basically just try to have an evidence-based approach to some of the, to the question that you've asked, right? Like we all have our opinions, but what is, what does the data show? What are the trends show? And there's a lot of people out there doing that work. And so trying to put that in the context of water polo and some of the things we can do in water polo, think is really important. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (43:25.885)

Yeah, I'd love to see that. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (43:45.928)

Right. What, I mean, you'd mentioned, I've asked this question a couple of times with a couple of other guests as well. think it's interesting. You, you came up out of basketball, and found and quote unquote found water polo was a 15 year old. I came in in baseball and played basketball and all of those things. like same thing started, found water polo by a coach invitation, as a, as a freshman in high school. Is that era gone?

John Abdou (43:53.354)

Yeah.

John Abdou (44:09.518)

Mm.

Shawn Stringham (44:15.141)

Right. Like, I mean, we've talked about that, like how, how important is being a multi-sport athlete? I think it's really important. I love it when my athletes come up and say, Hey, I'm going to go and try baseball or basketball. Right. Like I had a conversation with Jani just yesterday where it's like, he was a basketball player and came in and, and being able to take that multi-sport experience and bring it to water polo felt like made him a better water polo player. Right. like, is, is that a bygone area? we.

John Abdou (44:32.814)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (44:44.559)

recreate that? Like, I don't know, how do we solve that?

John Abdou (44:48.91)

We we are the ones who caused the problem, right? And so it's our it's our fault Let's just be where I'm complicit in this myself, right? Like that area is gone. So now the story of Anata to sport athlete is like the exception when if you were to go back to that 2004 Olympic team that Janiya was on and asked surveyed all the athletes You know what their upbringing was like and I've done that I've done this right with the Olympic teams and said what we know We're and the Olympic Committee has done this. There's all they've surveyed all the Olympic athletes

Shawn Stringham (44:51.527)

Yeah, right.

Shawn Stringham (44:55.985)

Right. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (45:02.214)

Right.

John Abdou (45:17.454)

Leading up to Tokyo, so here's a good example, right? Study leading up to Tokyo, they surveyed all the athletes who made the US Olympic team, right? Not just water polo, all the athletes that made the Team USA on our way to Tokyo and the vast majority of them, we're talking like upwards of 80 % were multi-sport athletes when they were kids, right? So, but now as adults and as leaders in the sport, we thought, no, you're gonna specialize early and if you don't come to water polo practice four nights a week, five nights a week,

Shawn Stringham (45:34.545)

Right. Yep.

John Abdou (45:46.062)

We're falling behind. That's what the Europeans do. We got to catch up and we got to go to this route And so I think we we need to break this system up, you know completely I think the multi-sport athlete is incredibly important and it's really important for Athletic development athletic IQ development. I think it's it prevents injury right overuse injuries I mean the amount of Tommy John surgeries that are happening in baseball for kids, you know

is staggering, right? At those ages. And so I think it is over and it's unfortunate, right? Like you said, Jani's story, Meryl Moses has a great story, right? Where he was playing football and he shows up on the pool deck and right, starts playing water polo when he was in. Rachel Fittal was a star volleyball player growing up and, you know, had to make a choice at one point, but she's so athletic, she probably could have played any sport, right? You know, there's so many stories like that. And so I think the answer has to be that

And this is challenging, but you have to de-incentivize winning and financial gain at the 14 and under level. Like we have to, we as an American system, not just water polo, this like a system that we've created for athletes that are pre high school, pre junior high, that is incentivized by, you know, trophies, ultra competitiveness, highly selective teams, financial gain for clubs.

is very damaging to athlete development as a whole and Olympic athlete development as a whole.

Shawn Stringham (47:20.445)

Yeah. So, um, so I mean, this is maybe a side question. How do we balance that against support growth? Right. We want, we want kids to come into water polo, right? We want 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 year olds to come in and play. Um, and obviously, you know, we live in a, we live in a world where there's economic concerns. So as a, as a club administrator, how do I, how do I grow that base of athletes at the same time?

John Abdou (47:30.296)

Totally. Right.

John Abdou (47:44.451)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (47:49.179)

balance what you're saying in terms of the competitive and the highly competitive play.

John Abdou (47:57.868)

Yeah, it's a really good question because it's an art, not a science, right? Like there's not going to be a formula that says like, you know, this is exactly how you should do it. And it's going to be region to region, area to area. And a lot of this is parent driven, right? So if you have parents knocking down your door saying, I want an elite, highly selective elite, you know, tenant underwater pool team to compete in all these tournaments, like it's going to be really challenging to say no to that. Right. And I understand that. So I'm not coming from a place of judgment.

Shawn Stringham (48:01.799)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (48:19.399)

Right.

Shawn Stringham (48:23.399)

Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (48:27.854)

coming from a place of concern of like, do we move forward? I think the balance has to be that I think we tend to focus more, this is how I would balance it as a club administrator today, is we focus more on the competitive groups and all of our energy and especially coaches. Hey, like I wanna go coach that A team, I wanna go, and we don't focus on the B team, C team, right? And I wouldn't even wanna call them B teams or C teams.

Shawn Stringham (48:50.577)

Yeah, true.

John Abdou (48:54.094)

I think a lot of clubs and some of the clubs in the area that I've talked to here and even in Orange County lately have all now realized that their numbers have declined, right? They're seeing a declining enrollment. And it's because a lot of parents who are, you um, you know, Gen X parents or, you know, maybe younger than me now, millennial parents or whatever, aren't super interested in having every weekend gone at the. Yeah. Yeah. It's a massive commitment. Hey, you want every weekend gone five nights a week, you know, all these things.

Shawn Stringham (49:02.001)

Right. Yep.

Shawn Stringham (49:16.379)

It is commitment. Yeah.

John Abdou (49:23.45)

and so a lot of clubs are experiencing a decline in their enrollment. but they're still able to field this one elite team, but what parents are looking for the way you balance it is that you need to also put as much energy and attention, if not more into the recreation and the development side of your club, right? Like the part, the participation side of your club. And we have to come up with the right language, different clubs, do different languages, right? It could be like the competitive teams and then kind of your.

participation, teams, or, you know, call it black and gold or, you know, blue and yellow, whatever, like find the right names. But there's a group that doesn't have to compete, you know, four weekends a month. There's a group that can go two to three nights a week, and that's okay for them to go two, three nights a week, right? And on this, and it doesn't have to stop at a certain point, they can have a two, three night a week that goes through high school that goes through, you know, and beyond. And I think we're not focusing on that group. And then what happens is when you don't focus on that group, you talk about Olympic development,

Then we've really narrowed the path of people who are eligible to play at the highest of levels, right? We're not developing the bottom of the pyramid. We're not giving enough attention to the bottom of pyramid. I'm experiencing this now as a parent of a 12 year old where like, I don't know how to fit my kid into this system. I'm talking to parents every day about this. And then I'm talking to club directors like yourself saying like, hey, we're losing numbers, what do we do? And it's becoming very clear what you need to do, right? It's like you need to have more...

play fun opportunities. mentioned, you

Shawn Stringham (50:51.057)

Just have fun. You need to make it fun and not be a chore, right? Like you look at the commitment and we've even seen that in my own family, like five kids going through water polo and she's like, you just get burned out every single weekend on the road somewhere, right? Or trying to do that. And she's like, you know what? It's been an interesting, it's been a little bit of an interesting journey. I've taken a couple of weeks off of, like, this is what it's like to be home at eight o'clock.

John Abdou (51:00.664)

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (51:16.654)

Great. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (51:19.037)

at eight o'clock at night. You know what I mean? Like this is a strange thing. And I think it's amazing to be able to create some of those additional connections. yeah, I mean, think that's very an insight. It's going to be the journey to find, right? To navigate how to maintain and bring athletes into the sport, but at the same time, create some of that balance that goes into it as well.

John Abdou (51:22.999)

Yeah, yeah.

John Abdou (51:42.666)

Yeah, no, think that's question is the valid one, right? So like, we all need this is the this is the conversation for now. All of us need to be getting together and talking about how we can create more house leagues, more play opportunities, more rec opportunities. And okay, you can still have the competitive side. not talking about removing that. But if that's our only focus, then we then we're not a we're not going to we're going to stop growing the sport and be we're going to developing enough athletes to have a healthy pool of elite athletes in the future, because we're also

Shawn Stringham (51:45.724)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (51:53.285)

Right. Yep.

Shawn Stringham (51:58.449)

Yeah. Right.

John Abdou (52:11.47)

kids have to go through puberty before we can identify them as future Olympians, right? So like, let kids have some late bloomers. Like we've lost the room for a late bloomer to come through and some to come. And the other thing I would say just to highlight a piece of the ADM, the American Development Model that I'm really, really important is that play opportunity. So, you know, drive by a park right now, do you see kids playing pickup basketball on the hoops all the time right now? Or does it look pretty empty generally every time you drive by a park?

Shawn Stringham (52:14.566)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (52:20.858)

Right. Yeah, sure.

John Abdou (52:41.134)

Right? Like feels pretty empty, right? Like it feels empty. Like kids aren't just walking outside and saying like, Hey yo, let's just go shoot some hoops on this play. Right? Like we're missing just non coach directed play opportunities. Now water polo, that's even harder because it's a safety issue. It's an access issue, right? You have to have a lifeguard. got to, someone's gotta be watching the pool. You got to open a pool. But if you look at the countries that develop the highest, some of the best water polo players in the world, the Croatians and the Montanegas of the world and things like that.

They get to just go play pick up water polo sometimes in the ocean, right? They're able to just jump in the ocean. There's goals sitting out in ocean. They're able to play. There's a great statistic within like NCAA ice hockey and then the NHL of like how many ice hockey players come out of the state of Minnesota? Well, why does like, why is everyone ice hockey player come out of state of Minnesota? Do they have the best club youth system in America? Maybe, but they also have a lot of lakes where people can just go outside and just mess around and like skate around and.

Shawn Stringham (53:12.262)

Right. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (53:32.572)

Alright, I just have look at nice. Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (53:36.706)

shoot and do stick handling and puck handling drills and things like that. We're missing that opportunity. So if as a club, the other way to help growth, can you just open the pool, let kids shoot around, let kids mess around in the pool, let them shoot around, let them have fun, let them just play with the ball, let them experiment without a coach on their head telling them they're doing it wrong every two seconds. And we might have a better chance of keeping them involved, having fun and developing to lead players.

Shawn Stringham (53:53.788)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (53:58.715)

And you, what do you think like the role of the fun four on four beach play or I mean, in terms of the overall development, like that's, that's one of the leagues that I've really, put some energy into here to try to build that out. And I think, you know, just getting those extra reps, smaller teams, just being able to get more touches, I think is another great way, right.

John Abdou (54:09.966)

Yeah.

John Abdou (54:18.478)

100 % and that and we talked about that in the research to write like Look soccer grew tremendously when you can when you could play with smaller numbers and smaller in a smaller pitch, right? So that was a big part of the development soccer plan. It was a big part of the ice hockey development plan It's a big, you know Big part of basketball that we can go play two on two three on three right outside and you see the rise of three on three basketball right now, too But those that's how you developed like why I didn't get to a varsity level of basketball because I played five on five every day in a structured met nose

me by myself, it's how do basketball players, it's by themselves in their driveway shooting hoops, playing two on two with your buddies and things like that. And so I think, you know, there's some resistance to four on four water polo. There's a resistance to the beach. It's resistance to small side. And I've been on the end of a lot of those nasty messages and, you know, things telling me, Hey, you know, small sided balls killing the game. It's actually the data is proving that it's, it's the opposite. It's going to help us grow the game. It's going to help people get better. And it's like,

They get the proofs in the pudding, you know, that I think this is a big deal. if you ask the, you know, the Waterpoll Illuminati in Europe and in America, they will tend, they tend to agree, right? Like this is something that's really important for us. So I'm stoked to hear that you're pushing forward for.

Shawn Stringham (55:32.989)

It makes me feel good about my house leagues that I have drawn up that you mentioned that we're hoping to put together a 10, 12, 14-year house league, just fun rec league. I've just come try water polo because I feel like if we can get them in there and have some fun, get some low key touches that, A, that will help develop some referees that are in the same way, but at the same time, get some athletes who might want to go on and play in the spring league as well. So that makes me feel good that you mentioned that.

John Abdou (55:35.894)

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

John Abdou (55:52.259)

Yes.

John Abdou (56:01.09)

Dude, you're crushing it. That's good. That type of league is good for everybody. It's good for everything. Yes. Yeah. Keep it up.

Shawn Stringham (56:05.082)

Right. Cool. All right. Let's pause there. Another quick drink before we go into our last segment. Chloe, everything good? Just checking in.

John Abdou (56:10.286)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (56:17.948)

Okay.

Shawn Stringham (56:24.86)

Can we do a bonus one here? Do you have time, John?

John Abdou (56:28.078)

Yeah, I'm good. good. Yeah, the Wednesday was when you said Wednesday, it's like when I try to actually take Wednesday's relatively off. Like I don't schedule. I try to schedule Wednesday meetings because we work so many nights and weekends. You know, I'm like, I need one day to like do my laundry and, you know, do other stuff. want to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Shawn Stringham (56:39.43)

Great. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (56:48.328)

So in this, just kind of talking about the role and mission of the Association of Collegiate Water Polo Coaches and then just some of the challenges facing college water polo. Is that cool? Do you feel like we've gotten through that or is there more there to talk about?

John Abdou (56:54.488)

Mm.

John Abdou (57:02.602)

No, there's plenty. Yeah, whatever you want. Yeah, there's plenty. There's plenty to talk about at all times with these subjects. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (57:07.17)

I love it. Okay, cool.

Shawn Stringham (57:14.084)

Okay, we'll keep it short.

Shawn Stringham (57:18.012)

And I've got to get packed up and go to Florida. that's...

John Abdou (57:20.654)

Yeah, you gotta go to Florida. Yeah, fair. Yeah, whatever you want. Whatever the last few questions I ask, I'm here for it. Yeah, whatever you need.

Shawn Stringham (57:25.734)

Cool. So John, as we jump into kind of this last section, you're the executive director for the coaches association for water polo and senior associate AD for health, wellness, and sport performance. So in my mind, like I said, you're kind of literally shaping collegiate water polos future. What do you think that sport needs right now? Like just kind of pull it that the collegiate water polo needs right now.

You've done a ton of work in developing the D3 championship, right? Like lots of play opportunities there. Just kind of talk about the role and mission of that association and some of the things that, some of the issues that you're working on within the college water polo coaches.

John Abdou (58:09.238)

Yeah. so I'm, can you, we, started the, this full circle. we started this conversation about 10 years ago, right. When I, when we saw each other at UC San Diego, that was right around when I took over as the, executive director of, the ACWPC is the association collegiate water polo coaches. Right. so took it over about 10 years ago. that is a, nonprofit organization, that, represents and advocates for the growth and sustainability of college water polo in America.

Shawn Stringham (58:16.294)

Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

John Abdou (58:39.214)

And represents the coaches in to the NCAA, right? So the coaches voice to the NCAA It comes to the coach association. So most all college sports have a coach association it a lot of them are full-time employees Obviously, I'm not right. This is just a it was something that I started out volunteering in in this time it made sense though because it's all connected in the same ecosystem where we're at and so

Over the years, we've been able to pass a good amount of help push and pass some legislation within water polo. That's been helpful, like having more coaches on the bench. With our red shirt law rules, we've been able to push those. We've been able to have more playing dates for teams in the off seasons. We recently helped streamline the women's into women's water polo, college water polo season, now the NCAA championships at the end of April.

you know, so there's a, a more condensed into a, a reasonable timeframe. that was like a unanimous thing from the coaches. That's something they wanted and, you I helped represent and push forward. And so, so, you we work, that's the kind of stuff we work on. And then we worked to try to add. when I wear that shirt, like, you know, that the ACW PC shirt, I'm, I'm out talking to presidents and ADs like at St. Mary's college in Northern California, right. Who just recently added. so that's really neat. And so we're just trying to, I think our number one goal is to try to

Shawn Stringham (59:59.441)

Yeah, Out of the...

John Abdou (01:00:06.9)

know, growth and sustainability at the college level. So anybody who wants to be a part of that, like that's the organization that can help with is that we're solely focused on, on that goal. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (01:00:16.08)

Yeah. Cool. As you, as you put on your wizard hat here and kind of think forward, you've got so many different, so many different things that are stirring. What, does water polo look like in your world? If everything goes right in the next five to 10 years, like future forecast, what are some of the things you want to see, whether it be youth or college or Olympic or international? What, are some of the things you feel like we need to be working on or you want to see happen?

John Abdou (01:00:44.674)

Wow, I'll just try to pick a few, guess. The first things that come to mind. I mean, I would say in 10 years, I'd love to see a significant amount more universities add varsity water polo, particularly at the D3 level. So Denison College in Ohio added a women's varsity team. It's an amazing, they have an amazing pool, amazing facility, right? Really cool place.

Shawn Stringham (01:00:47.536)

Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (01:01:04.966)

Yeah, nice.

John Abdou (01:01:11.95)

Great swim team national champion level D3 swimming program now just decided they want to have women's water polo, right? So can we get a lot of these institutions like Denison to consider water polo as a great option for them to go so if in 10 years This is a very aggressive goal if it happens and we'd all be really stoked But you know in 10 years we had 40 Division three programs right now. We're in the in the low 20s, right? We're in the low 20s, but if we got to 40 in 10 years

That would be a miracle and it would be, it would start hitting the threshold of where the NCAA could sponsor the division three championship and it wouldn't have to be privately sponsored the way it is now by USA Water Polo and the, and the, the ACWPC. So, you know, people are putting their money in to make sure that this is happening. But you know, in 10 years, I'd love there to be enough and the NCAA has to be, you know, forced the NCAA to make it an official championship. That'd be great. So I think at the college level that's need to be done unrealistic for us for division one, a lot of division ones to be at.

St. Mary's College is unique in that they wanted to make sure that they are ahead of the enrollment cliff that's coming up here, right? And college admissions declining kind of through around the country. So small private schools like St. Mary's could be options if there are others out there, but they're interested in enrollment. So, know, 10 years, I want to see more colleges adding water polo. And I think that helps the trickle down.

The college water polo in America is the backbone of the ecosystem for our sport, period. If that you take out the backbone, the body collapses, right? And so the weaker college water polo is, the weaker youth water polo is, the weaker club water polo is, the weaker our national teams become, right? The weaker our pipeline of athletes becomes. And so there has to be a strong.

Shawn Stringham (01:02:43.034)

Right.

John Abdou (01:03:02.218)

NCAA water polo system to support how we do things in America, right? That's just how America works, right? This is that we're unique in as a country in that college sports with how meaningful playing at university is. And so I think I'll leave it at that. You know, like I think I think it's really important that we support the backbone and take care of our spine so that everything else in the sport can grow around, grow through it.

Shawn Stringham (01:03:26.009)

And let's make this our last question and let's make it athlete centric. There's a club or high school water polo player out there that's grinding, wants to be great. What piece of advice do you have for that athlete out there that wants to be a fantastic water polo?

John Abdou (01:03:28.844)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Abdou (01:03:42.222)

I would say, you know, the cliche part is to make sure you're focusing on your fundamentals. Anytime I talk to those athletes, like water polo is a very simple sport at the highest levels. It really is. We don't have very deep and long playbooks in relation to other sports, right? So that means on a tactical level, the sport is relatively simple to understand at a tactical level. What makes water polo the hardest sport in the world is the technical skills.

Shawn Stringham (01:04:04.388)

Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (01:04:09.536)

are incredibly, incredibly difficult and challenging, right? Like there are people, the people who can actually do the technical skills are the ones that are the highest of levels, right? So I would focus on that much more and let the egotistical college coaches and the, you know, and the national team coaches who we believe we can make anybody, yeah, just slightly. Yeah, I'm one of them. I'm confessing, you know, I'm confessing. Give me somebody, you know, the one small.

Shawn Stringham (01:04:26.716)

Do those exist out there? Is that what you're saying?

John Abdou (01:04:36.398)

It's story to back that up, right? I say this story often when I'm talking to players like this, right? Is when I was at Bucknell University coaching, you know, I had an athlete from New Hampshire, the water polo, you know, landscape in New Hampshire is not there. It's non-existent, right? But he was, you know, a good athlete could throw the ball well, could swim, was very coachable, obviously, you know, intelligent, things like that to go to a place like Bucknell and

Shawn Stringham (01:04:51.068)

Right. Yeah.

John Abdou (01:05:04.59)

I met him at Waterpole Camp in the summer. He could go over sips. He was athletic. He was an athletic guy. And by his senior year, he's scoring goals against Pac-4 schools and helping us win a conference, get to a conference championship game and doing all the things that really you wouldn't have expected. I had players from Brooklyn, I had players from New Mexico. So all those athletes just were able to really work.

and understand the technical and athletic side of things. So if you're out there grinding, become as athletic as you can in the water and focus on that less than how many goals am I scoring or am I running the right play or how many games am I playing over the weekend. If you come to one of us with good technical skills, we'll teach you water polo. It's not that hard. Yeah.

Shawn Stringham (01:05:47.142)

Yeah. John, incredible to spend some time with you today. I really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule. it's been an honor to get to know you over the last 10 years. And, the, it's one of those where as you get to know your heroes, sometimes you're disappointed, but this is one where like you are so fun to talk to and, and so smart and, just very genuine. So I really appreciate you sharing your time with us. and, thanks. I just want to say thanks, man. I appreciate it.

John Abdou (01:05:56.396)

Yeah, likewise.

John Abdou (01:06:15.295)

Yeah, no, like like why Sean, humble, humble to hear all that and just happy to play a small part in the sport and continue to fight for what we think is right here to help the sport grow. So I appreciate you and thank you for the platform.

Shawn Stringham (01:06:25.404)

Yeah. Cool. Thank you. All right. Cool. Um, Chloe, do you want me to read this, wrap this, do the rap here and then we'll get ready to go. that give you enough time still? Cool. June, 2015, John Abdu gave a shout out to a suburban full of crazy Utah kids who drove through the night to watch water polo. One of those kids would go on to found goals, but here's the thing about John.

He's been giving shout outs to the sport his entire career, not just in the broadcast booth, though he and Greg Muskell are the best in the business, but in building Olympic development programs, in coaching championship level athletes, in leading the association that represents every college water polo coach in America. John sees what water polo can be and he's doing the work, the hard, unsexy, administrative work to get us to...

John sees the water polo can be and he's doing the work, the hard, unsexy administrative work to get us there through NAL chaos, recruiting evolution, youth development challenges, and the constant question of how we grow sustainably. That's what a goals legend looks like. Someone who's been in the game for decades and still shows up, still broadcast, still leads, still fights for water polos future. John, thank you for the shout out in 2015.

And thanks for every broadcast since and thank you for your work you've been that most people never see. Water polo is better because you're in it. This has been the Extra Pass Pod presented by Game On Live Studio. If you're a coach, parent, or athlete navigating college water polo, share this episode. The insights here are gold. Next week, another gold legend who shaped our journey. I'm Shawn Stringham. Stay in the game.

Cool. That was the outro. Yeah, the intro is...

John Abdou (01:08:22.754)

Can I bounce so I don't feel so uncomfortable when you're gassing me up like that?

Shawn Stringham (01:08:28.091)

the recording just stopped out here quick there.

weird.

Shawn Stringham (01:08:42.681)

Yeah, you can just stop that and we'll get it.

Shawn Stringham (01:09:02.425)

We can. I think we can get through the rest of it. Cool.

Shawn Stringham (01:09:19.803)

Good to go.

June 2015, I'm not the CEO of Goals yet. Goals doesn't exist. I'm just a water polo fan loading a suburban full of Utah athletes for an insane road trip. Orange County, USA versus Serbia, Tony Azevedo, Meryl Moses, John Mann, American water polo, heroes tuning up for Rio. We have AP test the next morning back in Salt Lake, so we're driving through the night completely crazy. The broadcaster, John Abdu, notices us, gives us a shout out, acknowledges the madness.

And in that moment, my love for the sport ignites even deeper. 10 years later, John Abdu is still the voice of water polo, still calling championships, just called UCLA's one goal national title game last weekend, but he's also become so much more. A senior athletic director, executive director of the Water Polo Coaches Association's past chief performance officer of USA Water Polo, John is the guy navigating college water polo through NIL.

recruiting chaos and the question of what sustainable growth really means. This is John Abdu and this conversation is about Water Polo's future.

Shawn Stringham (01:10:31.878)

Wait.